Final Crisis: Ultimate Failure

[Mr Wallstreet]

For me this was hands down the worst mini of all the "Crisis" stories DC has done.

I had no clue what was going on from the get-go. Every subsequent issue in the series confused me further as I had not read the tie-ins to know exactly what was going on. DC and Marvel are both pretty guilty of this but DC more than Marvel as of late. DC put out numerous tie-ins and specials and that weekly "countdown to final crisis" story which you had to have read to understand the full scope of what was going on. And more often than not the tie-ins are mediocre at best and irrelevant at worst.

Identity Crisis was, by far, the best best it was a self contained LS. You didn't need to read all of the tie-ins and the story was emotionally charged and action packed (despite a few glaring plot holes and a bit of uneven in the pacing).

Infinite Crisis came in second and though it didn't have as many plot holes, it blew chunks because you had to have read 4 other 6-issue LS to understand what was going on. IC, however, redeemed itself in the end if (if you understood everything that was going) by delivering an awesome penultimate ending.

Final Crisis? Forget it. Couldn't understand a single thing that went on there.

[ChimeraCreative]

I picked up the first Trade of Countdown to Infinite Crisis then ran like hell. http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/cwm/uhoh.gif I can't even begin to imagine picking up Final Crisis. But is it really the final, last ever, crisis? Probably not, eh?

[MGM]

Agreed, FC was rubbish.

[wolf_2099]

I still can't figure out how/when darkseed got to earth and introduced that formula?

[Sandman]

The best part of it was the Rage of the Red Lanterns. it had nothing to do with Final Crisis but introduced the beginning of the blackest night story which I am really looking forward to. It also introduced RAGE CAT!!! I think Bisky would like him he burns stuff.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XMPh28LDNJ0/SQ7GZTlcNFI/AAAAAAAAD4E/6KTUXZkL2Mg/s400/cat.jpg

[Tragic Angelus]

FC Had it's major plot holes and inconsistancies. The One Shots and minis were far better than the series itself. Requim was amazing, Rogue's Revenge was fun, and Legion could be good if it came out on time.

I agree that Identity Crisis was absolutely the best, but don't know what plot holes you're referring to. I absolutely loved that book, and have read it probably more than other stories.

I'm gonna have to re-read FC from beginning to end just to try to comprehend it.

[Mr Wallstreet]

FC Had it's major plot holes and inconsistancies. The One Shots and minis were far better than the series itself. Requim was amazing, Rogue's Revenge was fun, and Legion could be good if it came out on time.

The two tie-ins I read were Requiem (for MM) and Faces of Evil: Prometheus (Thank you Meek) and they were vastly more enjoyable than any single issue of FC.

I agree that Identity Crisis was absolutely the best, but don't know what plot holes you're referring to. I absolutely loved that book, and have read it probably more than other stories.

I'm gonna have to re-read FC from beginning to end just to try to comprehend it.

I'll point out the plot holes for IC again when I have the energy.

But I'm not so sure I'd have the energy and more importantly desire to re-read FC.

[Mr Wallstreet]

It also introduced RAGE CAT!!! I think Bisky would like him he burns stuff.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XMPh28LDNJ0/SQ7GZTlcNFI/AAAAAAAAD4E/6KTUXZkL2Mg/s400/cat.jpg


Is he related to:


http://www.dcuguide.com/glcorps/images/gnort.jpg

G'Nort?

[Tragic Angelus]

I didn't get the Prometheus FoE, but I did grab the Deathstroke one as it'll lead into the Titans crossover and comes out of Last Will and Testament.

Revelations was also a good one, but you'd need to have enjoyed the transformation of Renee Montoya over the last few years to really get the whole effect of that story.

[Mr Wallstreet]

I didn't follow all of Rene Montoya's activities over the past few years but her evolution into The Question in the pages of 52 was one of the best "passages" I've ever seen.

The ending was so tragic; Charles Victor Szaz died in her arms mere inches from Nanda-whatever-that-place-is-called. It tugged on all the right heartstrings.

[Tragic Angelus]

If you read 52, then you read the majority of her story. Crime Bible: 5 Lessons of Blood is probably the next one you'd want to read, and then Revelations.. meek? would know if I was missing anything, but those are the main ones I know of.

[wolf_2099]

Who actually read 52?

[Tragic Angelus]

I did... twice actually.

After I went home one weekend, I brought back all of 52, the issues of FC and the tie ins that had come out before I moved, along with the current Titans and JLoA issues that I left back home.. having no cable here, and at times little to do last semester, I got to re-read the entire 52 run in about 4 or 5 days, which made the whole thing a lot more coherent, interesting, and fun to read as I was able to pick up on a lot more plot points, sub plots, and hints at future storylines. Much more fun to re-read the story as a whole in a short amount of time than over a year span.

[wolf_2099]

I couldn't stand reading ti week to week over a year, but I have it. Maybe I try re reading it?

What about the other 52 issue ones? Countdown and was there another?

[Tragic Angelus]

I refuse to even THINK about re-reading Countdown because it was so horrible from week to week. 52 was good over the whole year for most of the entire run, and ended good as well.

Countdown was failing from the start and never got better.

Trinity is the current weekly, and I got the first.. 11? issues since I could get them for free, and it wasn't bad but I wasn't that into it so I didn't bother to continue on with it. I enjoyed the beginning because it featured most of the JLA for a few issues, where they're own book had almost nothing going on with them lol

[wolf_2099]

What's trinity about>

[Tragic Angelus]

basically, from what I could gather, it's based around the DCU Trinity, Superman Batman and Wonder Woman, and the role they play in the world.. and what happens when they're replaced (I think) or removed from their position.. I'm not entirely sure since I stopped reading it early on.. but I remember they're replaced by about 3 villains, Morgan Le Fey, Despero, and some techno type villain. but like I said, I'm not reading it or up on it so I don't know what's really going on in it anymore.

[wolf_2099]

That sounds awful.

Bagley needs another job.

[Tragic Angelus]

Agreed. he does quick and decent artwork that I enjoy, and I'd love to see him on a higher profile book at DC.

[jedispyder]

Countdown was utter shite, and I lost interest in Trinity 3 times. Yes, I've tried to read Trinity 3 different times and keep stopping, lol. 52 was one of the best Maxi-Series in the last decade, IMO. It had so many squee moments as well as the great use of B-characters that before you could care less about but know you love them to death...

[wolf_2099]

Fuck, I guess I need to dig it out and read it

[Tragic Angelus]

Yes. Yes you should :D

It actually is much more fun to read as a whole in a shorter amount of time, so you might enjoy it more that way.

[wolf_2099]

Who wrote it anyway? Morrison and others?

[XIII]

I think it was Morrison with Rucka and Waid and Johns.
I don't really know if I Identity Crisis was the best cause I don't think there is anything good about this Crisis trilogy. I guess I'd say it was the less bad of the 3.

52 did have some good stuff, I'll give you that much.

[wolf_2099]

Does anyone even remember Crisis on Infinite Earths?
That is a very good team of authors, should have read it.

[Tragic Angelus]

Yea, it was the four of them that all wrote 52.

And techinically, Identity Crisis is not part of the triliogy of crisis stories if I recall reading right. I think Didio has Crisis on Infinite Earths as the first part, followed by Infinite and then Final.

Identity was just suspposed to be the catalyst that launched the next two parts of the trilogy. At least, that's what I read awhile back when Infinite had wrapped and we were working towards Final.

[wolf_2099]

Wonder how much shit is rolling downhill in the DC offices thanks to final crisis.

[Tragic Angelus]

Hopefully just Morisson's career. :D

[XIII]

I wouldn't mind Morrison's career going downhill as long as Vertigo offices are located right down that hill.

[wolf_2099]

So long as he roles back into Vertigo and writes his filth there?

I'd like him to do another good X-Men or JLA type team book.

[XIII]

That was the last time the X-Men were exciting to me. Morrison's era.

[wolf_2099]

Sigh. On a large scale, me too.
That makes me sad. Especially considering how easy they should be to make cool.

[Tragic Angelus]

I wasn't so thrilled with his X-Men run after the first arc.. it just got.. uninteresting to me... His JLA run was awesome though.

[wolf_2099]

I'd also really really like to see someone come out with another authroity type run like Millar and Ellis had.

That is one of my favorite runs of comics ever. Great super team action

[MGM]

X-Men franchise suffers from stagnation. Give anyone free reing and X-Men will be awesome again.

[wolf_2099]

Well then. Who do you guys want to see take over x-books?

[MGM]

Given free reign? It IS difficult, writing team books. But Fractions last annual was very good. I'd like to see PAD on X-Men with free reign. Or Aaron.

[wolf_2099]

Aaron writing one x-book and PAD on another would be awesome.

Isn't this the DC board?

[MGM]

Yes, but it's about the failure of DC, and the glory of Marvel.

[Tragic Angelus]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Stop right there.. that's blasphemy.

[MGM]

The topic titles does read Ultimate Failure and it is in the DC forum.

[Mr Wallstreet]

At the risk of regressing the discussion:

I brought all paperbacks for 52, read them and enjoyed them.

I brought all paperbacks for Countdown and read them. It was less enjoyable than 52. I have yet to read the last paperback for Countdown.

Morisson's FC blew and I hope Didio he sticks with Vertigo in the future or team titles in the future.

[wolf_2099]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Stop right there.. that's blasphemy.

After FC, not so much.

[Mr Wallstreet]

Yes, but it's about the failure of DC, and the glory of Marvel.

Not sure that DC's a complete failure just yet.

Despite how shitty FC turned out, I'm waiting on pins and needles for the mega GL event: War of Light.

[wolf_2099]

Green Lantern is always good, though.

[MGM]

Except when it's about Hal Boredan.

[wolf_2099]

Even then it is better than okay that a lot of superhero comics.

[MGM]

Even then it is better than okay that a lot of superhero comics.

That sentense makes no sense.

[wolf_2099]

Hal Jordan, starring in GL, written by Johns, is still a better superhero comic than most others.

[Tragic Angelus]

Anything by Johns is better than most other comics. :D

[MGM]

I must admit, he's a good writer. But he's so fucking nostalgic. QUIT REBUILDING YOUR FUCKING CHILDHOOD!

[Tragic Angelus]

I don't mind it honestly. I mean, I didn't read DC from the start, and only over the last 4 or 5 years have I switched over, so it's kind of a nice shake up of things that I'm enjoying.

Don't worry though, I'm sure tons of it will be undone in another 5-10 years.

[wolf_2099]

I must admit, he's a good writer. But he's so fucking nostalgic. QUIT REBUILDING YOUR FUCKING CHILDHOOD!

WALLY WEST IS AN AWESOME FUCKING FLASH!

[Tragic Angelus]

WALLY WEST IS AN AWESOME FUCKING FLASH!


I'm fairly certain you just made my pants explode.

I love Wally West. Best. Flash. Ever.

[wolf_2099]

Damnit. Now I am going to go on Megan's List for making Tragics pants explode.

But Wally West is awesome.

[Tragic Angelus]

He really is.

When he came back, I had gone to the comic shop on my lunch break from work, and my friends there told me to sit and read the book.

I was freaking out all day long after I read it. I kept yelling both out loud and in my head 'Wally West is back! he's fucking back!'

I was estatic all day long. It's the only downside to having Barry back.. Wally will kind of be pushed aside for just a bit in some places.

But he wasn't being written very well in his book after his return. I really want Geoff back on him to make him good again. He's struggled under every other writer since him.

[wolf_2099]

How many good flash writers are there beyond Johns?

Same question for GL.

[Tragic Angelus]

Honestly I don't know. I would like to get Waid's run before Geoff took over, but I didn't care much for his take when Wally returned.. my old boss loved it and actually dropped the book when Johns first started, then said he wished he hadn't.

he had the whole thing for sale, but someone beat me to it :(

As for GL, I really don't know. I didn't read either title till he was on them, and Flash actually after the fact as I've read it in trade form, only doing singles when Bart took over, then Wally's return. As for GL, I started with Rebirth and then the new run, so I really couldn't judge.

[wolf_2099]

I started reading both the them with Johns, too.
I read Waid's later run and did not enjoy it. I did not know he wrote before.

I may look into that

[Tragic Angelus]

Yea, from what I can gather, Waid basically was the only Flash writer prior to Johns.. he was on it for a few years, with little breaks here and there, but he primarily 'defined' Wally for a few years as the Flash before Johns took over.

[wolf_2099]

Hmm, I imagine it would have been pretty good then. I shall go oinvestigate

[Tragic Angelus]

Let me know what you find out. I've not bought any Waid Flash TPBs, not till I finish off all of them by Johns

[wolf_2099]

They are apparantly good, and he wrote shit load of flash

[Tragic Angelus]

I wasn't kidding when I said he was the only one.. he was on there for quite a few years. Close to a decade, I'd say, wasn't he?

[wolf_2099]

Close to 100 issues. A while with a co writer.

[Tragic Angelus]

not too bad then.. I'm sure there were fill ins here and there as well. DCs only real problem is trade paperbacks aren't readily available for nearly everything. At the time it was only for big stories, but now everything gets one.. hopefully they'll go back and put some of those stories into trades so they're easier to get.

[wolf_2099]

Yeah, I don't even want to think of tracking down those old Waid Flash stories, even though they'd probably be good.

[XIII]

Anything by Johns is better than most other comics. :D

He did a very forgetable run on Avengers. :D

[XIII]

I think the co-writer was Brian Augustyn. They created Impulse.

[Tragic Angelus]

I really actually enjoyed Johns run on Avengers before I followed him. He was on it right before Bendis, and I had just gotten into the title after the Kang Dynasty storyline. I really enjoyed all the characters, and the things going on, then remembered getting utterly pissed when Bendis came on and seemingly tore it all to shit.

It was around that time that I started paying more attention to who was writing the books I was enjoying, and it turned out that I liked what Johns did on Avengers, so I gave another one of his books a shot over at DC.

And they lived happily ever after :D

[XIII]

Chuck Austen had a run between Johns and Bendis.

[wolf_2099]

Chuck Austen had a run between Johns and Bendis.

Thanks for reminding me. Ass.

[XIII]

What, had you forgotten all about the mastermind writer that was Chuck Austen?

[Tragic Angelus]

I think we've all tried to, on any book.

[wolf_2099]

I think we've all tried to, on any book.

Except US War Machine.

I really liked US War Machine.

[Tragic Angelus]

I never read it. The MAX stuff really didn't appeal to me in all honesty. I was badly burned by his X-Men run, so I've done my best to avoid him, or at least go in knowing what I'll be getting myself into.

[wolf_2099]

Did he write superman? Does anyone know what is was like?

[XIII]

He had a run on Superman yes, with Ivan Reis drawing. I don't remember it getting anything more than mild reviews at best.